Rockin' On Magazine Interview #1

Jeff: Hello Steve.

Steve: Hi Jeff.

Jeff: Hi.

Steve: Glad we finally caught up with you.

Jeff: Mmmm... Yes, I know.

Steve: I've got a list of questions here provided to me by the Japanese journalist from "Rockin' On" magazine.

Jeff: Aha. It's "Rockin' On", man.

Steve: "Rockin' On". I'll basically just go from this list and maybe supplement it a little bit on my own. Let's see. Actually this guy interviewed you very recently and he was a little bit hard put to come up with questions because he already asked you everything.

Jeff: Ahh hmm.

Steve: So this is just the stuff he missed. He said that when you signed with Columbia you demanded that the record company be sincere, patient, and not interfere with your...

Jeff: No, I didn't. I didn't demand anything.

Steve: Oh, really? OK. I don't know why he got this...

Jeff: No No No. It was a question that Clive Davis asked me. He asked me "What are you looking for in a record company?" In a relationship... And those three things I told him.

Steve: Oh, I see.

Jeff: So, he just had a question like "Well, what is it you're looking for?" And I said this, this, and this.

Steve: So I guess I can phrase this question : Did you find those things in the record company?

Jeff: Yes. You can find it. It just depends on the people you work with and how you communicate yourself. You can find it anywhere.

Steve: So you've been happy with the way they've treated you so far?

Jeff: Yeah, sure. We have our push and pull and our differences but in the end, I'm the one who really knows best about the work.

Steve: Did they have any input at all in the making of the record "Grace"?

Jeff: Nope. No.

Steve: Is that right?

Jeff: Just me.

Steve: Did they provide you guidance, though? Did they help you out in any way?

Jeff: Nope.

Steve: All on your own.

Jeff: Not really. I mean, like, Oh, I see what you mean. The studio was found by or was suggested by my A&R guy who used to manage the Cars. These people are pretty... They've been in the business for a while, but they're still kind of new? And they just sort of... If you're in the music business, you just sort of keep connected. Being connected with rock people, you can sort of get to things easier through your connections. Not any reductions or anything. Actually Andy Wallace got a really good deal from Bearsville, because he uses the place all the time. Stuff works like that. But , as far as the conception and the art, the company has nothing to say about it.

Steve: Ah, so I see. They expedite the process.

Jeff: Yeah, it's my process.

Steve: Has your outlook on the business changed now that you're sort of firmly ensconced in it? Do you find yourself compromising more? Are you more set in your ways? How exactly does it work now?

Jeff: Yeah, my values have not changed one iota.

Steve: Really?

Jeff: No. I do good work with people who understand me. It's great. It's great. The record business will always be the same, but you can always do good things within it. There's just such a propensity for difficult things to happen, because it's such supply and demand. It's a weird... It's not people in the music business. It's the whole... Maybe I should have said that, because really the whole business, the idea of the business, is fucking retarded. [S. chuckles]

Jeff: What it is is that people don't really know what exactly it is they're selling? But still they have to sell it, or they feel that it's been set up to be sold like steel, or apples, and oranges or, Captain Crunch, or a thing that has a tangible value, and a place. It doesn't. It's a very individual experience. So you have all these weird imbalances, and nuts and bolts, and give and take, and very arbitrary decisions, and people getting rugs ripped out from under them. This still happens, and it will always happen, because that's the music business. It's not that I distrust it. It's just I'm very aware of it. To date, it's treacherous. You just have to be careful. You have to know your own value, and you have to let people... You have to communicate how it is to be done. The people that I do business with... It's only pretty much 5 people out of the huge religious cult that is Sony world wide [S. chuckles] -- they're like everywhere. The people I deal with overseas are pretty good. They're pretty good. But I work closely with about 5 people : my A&R guy, my publicist, my product manager, senior vice president [of Columbia] on the West Coast Missy [Worth], and Don [Ienner, Chairman of Columbia] -- and I don't even see him, I don't even see him. Oh, and Chris Austopchuk, the art director. So he counts as the fifth guy. That's about it. I mostly only see Steve and Missy. I'm sorry, I mean Steve and Leah.

Steve: And they are what? What's the position of the...

Jeff: Oh, My A&R guy, and my product manager. But I just happen to like them. [amused]

Steve: [chuckles] Have you...

Jeff: But I don't spend too much time up there. Although I used to first, because I didn't have any management at all, so I would be conducting things myself, and then finally I got management. It was pretty hard.

Steve: Oh, so, having dabbled in that yourself, I'm sure you're even more aware of what should be done then.

Jeff: Yeah, I was sort of thrown into this situation because it happened without my say so -- like the interest happened. I never have pursued any music companies ever. It just sort of fell into my lap. So I was trying to deal with it. It's much easier to have a go-between, much more comfortable.

Steve: Has there ever come a time in all of this where you had to sort of draw the line and say "Wait, wait. This is the wrong thing to do, or I'm not going..."

Jeff: Oh. Tons of times

Steve: Really?

Jeff: Even before they're incepted.

Steve: Really?

Jeff: Oh. Totally.

Steve: Like what for example? Like have you not wanted to...

Jeff: Gap commercial, TV. Lots of TV. The Jon Stewart Show. The oh... um... Oh, I forget. I don't remember them now.

Steve: What would be wrong with TV or a Gap commercial? What exactly?

Jeff: Gap commercial, at the time, I didn't, but actually I don't even wear Gap clothes.

Steve: [laughs] I don't think that anyone who's 'added' does, but...

Jeff: I mean, I have, I have... No, you'd be surprised. I just don't think it's me.

Steve: How about performance on talk shows though? Is there something...

Jeff: Eccch... Although I'd love to do a live performance... on a music show, and I have in the UK, and in Canada on "Much Music" we just did a live in-studio performance of "Grace." That I approve of. It's really fun, and it really tells a good story -- an accurate picture of what the music is.

Steve: But on the Jon Stewart Show they wanted you to lip-sync it or something?

Jeff: Oh, No No No. Just an offer came in to do it, and I just didn't think it was right. I think an offer came in. I may be wrong. No No No, it's live on the Stewart Show. There is no American TV show where you lip-sync. People pretty much do stuff live and that's pretty cool.

Steve: But you're worried about your music being misrepresented maybe if it's just a short... if you're only given 4 or 5 minutes?

Jeff: I just think... No. I don't watch the Jon Stewart Show. You know what I'm saying?

Steve: Oh, OK.

Jeff: I wouldn't be able to... I don't know... I just like to do things that have meaning to me, and that are fun. The presentation has to match the music and vice versa. I just like a package deal. It was really, totally intoxicatingly fun to just be with the guys in a live TV studio, with people rushing around getting coffees, and making Xerox copies of stuff, as we're playing. It gave me such a -- that was in Canada on "Much Music" -- and it was such a workplace thing that I felt really comfortable. There was a lot of chaos going on around. We love live radio performances. We just love to play live. We just love it.

Steve: So you kind of control your appearances. You don't just get any and all exposure you can.

Jeff: I just choose wisely and slowly, because I don't want to be over-exposed too soon because I'm not... If my music was a cure for cancer," maybe. [S. laughs] But it's not. It's just a really individual experience, and I can't purport to say [in funny pompous nasally voice] "I am just, I am the greatest thing and you need me -- you need me A LOT" [S. laughs] Besides, I hate the way that TV just kills stuff. Cobain used to write a good song, and they just KILL the fucker, until you didn't want to hear it anymore because they played it so long, so much.

Steve: Yeah. That's a very good point.

Jeff: It bugged the shit out of me. It's different from playing a song over and over again in your apartment because you want to hear it.

Steve: One of the questions here that this guy asks is that he hears that there's a ten-year plan on to make you sort of a cult figure.

Jeff: A what?

Steve: A cult figure.

Jeff: Who is this? Who is this person who says so?

Steve: The guy who made up the questions here.

Jeff: Made up the questions?

Steve: He heard something about a ten-year plan.

Jeff: That may be in Japan. But I have no idea. Even so... I do not adhere to any plan. I'm telling you this publicly and privately. The plan is just to provide space for me to make albums and make them better, and explore, and be an artist. It's not like I have to turn out yogurt. [S. chuckles] This is stuff that lives, and reflects life. So I need to have that kind of life.

Steve: Tell me, Jeff... Do you see any musicians ten or twenty years older than you, and think of them as a like a role model or person like "I'd like to be in his position?"

Jeff: Hell yes!

Steve: Like who, for example?

Jeff: Like Tom Waits. Like Lou Reed. Like Allen Ginsberg. DeNiro.

Steve: Pardon me?

Jeff: DeNiro.

Steve: Oh, DeNiro.

Jeff: And Dylan. People who have had an actual life, have come through flame after, flame either on their own flame, or other flames of people hating them, or completely elevating them to god status, and them still being around. The last two things that Dylan did are great. He is beautiful, still. I appreciate that, and I'm happy. Or William S. Burroughs. He hasn't lost any of his... shock. [laughter]

Steve: Those are all people who, throughout their long careers, have paid attention to their craft only, it seems...

Jeff: Yeah.

Steve: And are not swayed by what's in vogue, or the times in any way.

Jeff: Well, I'm part of the times, so I can't really help but be... reflect my life, in this time and age. I just do it the way I do it. It will change and grow.

Steve: The guy here know that the industry as a whole seems to really have taken to you -- the music business that is. The press, the electronic media.

Jeff: Electronic media, really?

Steve: Well, I mean television.

Jeff: Oh, I see. I thought you meant computer people.

Steve: Computer people too.

Jeff: Really? [incredulously]

Steve: I see your name a lot on the bulletin boards.

Jeff: Internet.

Steve: Yeah, Yeah [Ed : Steve is on the WELL topic that discusses Jeff]

Jeff: You're kidding!" [amused]

Steve: Yeah. It's not like everywhere, but...

Jeff: No, I know that. I know that.

Steve: It's not the latest fad, but yeah, people have been talking about you.

Jeff: All I can say to that is let's wait two or three years down the line.

Steve: But you want to prove yourself, and you want to...

Jeff: I'm honored and I'm happy, but it's not what makes my world go 'round and it's not what's going to keep the thing going. It's just simply to be appreciated and acknowledged. I'm happy. That's queer. It's actually very strange. [incredulously again] It's just very strange. I don't know how to react to it, just to say "Thank you sir, thank you madam..."

Steve: I mean, I don't think I've seen a negative...

Jeff: "Would you like some fries with that?"

Steve: Pardon me?

Jeff: [chuckles] "Would you like some fries with that?" [S. chuckles] What were you about to say?

Steve: I don't think I've seen a negative word written about you.

Jeff: Oh, I have.

Steve: Really?

Jeff: Oh, I've seen plenty. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, of course.

Steve: But mostly it's positive, though.

Jeff: Mmm Mmm

Steve: So I guess you're hitting the right buttons.

Jeff: I don't know. I'm glad they like it. I'm just glad people like music in general. See the thing is, is that I may come out with something I think is the most eloquent thing I can say and people just won't get it. It's totally a crap shoot. Or _Grace_ will hang around and people will see that it's worthless or people... I don't know. Music is very strange. [humorously] Sometimes it hangs around for years, and you hate it, and you think it is the most stinky corpse you can possibly have in your house, and don't want to see it anymore. But one day, it creeps in, and you get a moment when you actually need that song. Maybe it's because of her, or maybe it's because of him, maybe it's because of what you need, or somebody dying. That's the way music is. It's not like Sega. You get it, and it either works and excites you, or it doesn't. It's not like that. It's sort of... Well, in some places, but some songs and music just hangs around, and gets in you, like a wasp. So I'm just saying that music needs time to live. While I'm happy about the accolades, and about any acceptance, or any liking of the music, it needs an ongoing dialogue.

Steve: Are you still receptive to other people's music? A lot of times musicians...

Jeff: Oh, totally.

Steve: Really? I mean, your own career hasn't changed you at all as a fan?

Jeff: NO No No, not at all.

Steve: Really?

Jeff: I'll always be a slobbering idiot for people I love.

Steve: [laughs] So what kind of things are you listening to now?

Jeff: Oh, the Grifters, Patti Smith, the new Ginsberg boxed set, MC5 -- totally pulled out that one. Ever heard of Juan Esquivel?

Steve: No.

Jeff: He's sort of like if Speedy Gonzales, as a game show host, had sex with Duke Ellington on acid. That's what it sounds like.

Steve: [laughing] Oh, I see.

Jeff: Totally in love with his music. I listen to Sun Ra. I listen to Kiss. Anything. Led Zeppelin. Bad Brains. Shudder to Think. Music my friends make. Our jam tapes, I totally adore.

Steve: There's a question here about Pearl Jam.

Jeff: Ah huh. Jeff Ament came to see our show in Seattle, and he was very nice. What about him? About them?

Steve: About them. This guy sees you as sort of sharing the same kind of attitude.

Jeff: Huh?

Steve: I think maybe what he's referring to is an attention to integrity -- artistic integrity.

Jeff: Oh. Well. Good. But you can say that about Soundgarden as well. Everybody does. No one wants to fucking sell themselves. Although, maybe its... I know, I know that I'm a whore. I know that I will do anything possible to do this... [S. laughs] So I'm a fucking whore, yeah, whatever... [nonchalantly]

Steve: Wait, but it's seems like you're..

Jeff: It's just that I enjoy my sex. You know.

Steve: [laughs] Oh, I see. OK. But I mean, it seems like you're a little more choosy, or a little more...

Jeff: It's just the conceptual artist in me sees places where I feel like I don't belong, and places where I do. There's no need to bang my head against the wall so early... and try to win people over at 6-Flags Magic Mountain. [S. chuckles] Why not go to a place where people who really want to hear it come. I've never traveled in packs. I've always sort of been on the outside. I've always been the stranger. Art works better in places where you are allowed to have your deepest eccentricities come out. You need a really good space for that. Sometimes it's bars, and sometimes it's like Trinity Church in Toronto.

Steve: But by the same token...

Jeff: We played in a burrito restaurant the other night. It was amazing. A little church. Anyway, sorry...

Steve: I guess by the same token though, if you got turned into a big rock star and were playing stadiums or something, would the music then loose something?

Jeff: No. Because one : I'll never being playing the stadiums, and two : The conceptual artist in me would see a stadium and would go "What sort of material would be completely filled with subtlety, and nuance in a big fucking stadium? and also rock, and hold an entire stadium?" That would be quite a challenge indeed, but I don't like stadium shows because usually the act on the stage is so big that people take them for granted. In the middle of a song they don't understand, they go away and buy a program, or a hot-dog, or a beer, or something. It's not a musical experience. It's just like a swap meet, like an event. That would kill me. I'd be so sad.

Steve: You're pretty demanding of your audience. You want them really...

Jeff: No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not, really. I just... I really am not demanding of the audience, because they can do whatever they want, but it's just...

Steve: You don't think that kind of atmosphere would be conducive to decent performance?

Jeff: Yeah. No, no. Unless you're like Paul McCartney, and you whip out "Live and Let Die" in a stadium with [S. laughs] fireworks, and big screens, and an amazing light show, and a band that knows the songs, and it sounds exactly like a huge, larger than life version of it. I listen to every... I saw that. Or if you write to "Hey Jude." Now you've heard that song so long that totally translates. You've heard it so well. But this music you, don't know well at first. It needs attention. But I don't demand that you sit there and be quiet. Maybe you came to the gig to talk to your friend that you haven't seen for sixteen years, or try to chat up a girl. I'm not about to stop that. It's fun.

Steve: How about your live performance. Do you see it improving quite a bit?

Jeff: Oh yeah. By leaps and bounds everyday, and it's always changing But some nights are devastatingly horrible. It just happens.

Steve: Do you think it's a matter of communication between the musicians, or actual facility on the part of...

Jeff: Actual facility, and there's always a new bent on how we interact. But our basic interaction is really great. The only time that really sucks is when the place is just not conducive to music, or when the system sucks. Especially if you play a big theater, or a theater -- that's big to me, but it's not that big, like a repertoire theater -- the monitor systems have to be really good, or else you can't hear each other, and that's like having heavily-condomed sex, and you get frustrated. [S. laughs] You might break something. Monitors are so important. And stadiums... We opened up for Soundgarden and Tad in Milwaukee -- which I can't believe -- and they had the best monitors. No wonder they can hear everything. You're sort of working off a radio mix in front of you that's supposed to be your band. We do best in places where we mix ourselves. Hardly any PA, and mostly us. That's it.

Steve: Actually now, it occurs to me the only one negative thing I read about you was a review of a concert. It said up to the end it was magnificent, and then you did the long version of "Kanga-Roo," and that sort of turned off that particular reviewer. Are you still doing...

Jeff: Which, which? Was it the London... at the Garage?

Steve: I think it was in _New Musical Express_.

Jeff: Can I tell you something?

Steve: Ah huh

Jeff: This is not bragging. Every fucking person... that was in front of me at the beginning of the show that I saw -- and I'm aware of my audience -- was still there. And we... The place was silent while we were playing "Kanga-Roo."

Steve: Hmmm

Jeff: He just got impatient. He just doesn't care. That's cool. Or he thinks that songs shouldn't be longer than three minutes, or maybe he just plain thought it was bad. But that was one of the best "Kanga-Roo's" that we'd played. Oh, it was the first time that ever happened like that. But that's OK. Some people think that Patti Smith is a fake. Some people thought James Dean was a fake. Who knows. It's art. But we had a good time. We've played some really stinky "Kanga-Roo's" though. [S. laughs] Some of them have been twelve minutes. It's hit and miss. Well, that's the whole point. It could happen, it could not. We don't know what's going to go on. That's the thing with that song is we don't know what's going to happen ahead of time. I don't plan that shit out. It's pure interaction. I'm leading it, and there might be some text I make up, or text that I've amassed over a few days, or sometimes I don't sing at all. It's mostly, it's supposed to be Matty propelling the rhythm with the drums. Lot's of reviewers are waiting for this perfect show. But that's because they have their own expectations all over it. I have no concern for that, or I have no concern for their fear of music.

Steve: Our interviewer asks about the suicide of Kurt Cobain. About how he may have been sort of chewed up by the business, and spit out. Is that your take on the matter?

Jeff: [long pause] I have no knowledge of his life, or his "him." There's always a way to provide for yourself. I think... that... either... you... [pause] People who kill themselves want to die. That's something I know for sure.

Steve: You mean you can't really say something beyond that?

Jeff: Um, no. Because one : it's heartbreaking, and two : I'm a stranger. All I know is that Courtney and Frances will never, ever live it down. They'll never, ever forget it. People won't forget that about them. I'm glad that Courtney made a good album despite.

Steve: OK. Another question here by the interviewer. Hello?

Jeff: [Jeff talking to someone in the background] I'm sorry. I was... Go ahead.

Steve: No problem. Another question here by the interviewer here. Do you include yourself among this Generation-X?

Jeff: Um... That's the whole thing, is that nobody who is in Generation-X named it Generation-X. [S. chuckles] That's probably the most befitting thing about this generation. There are no labels. There are no more rules. There are no more absolutes about youth culture whatsoever about what it's supposed to be, what it's supposed to do. All that exists now are labels, and trends. That's all that exists now in people's minds. I know the real world exists way, way down underground, in places where you have to go yourself, and taste it for yourself. You ain't gonna get it from MTV. You ain't gonna get it from any media. You are not going to find the revolution on a screen, or in a magazine. All I can say about Generation-X is that the labelers, and detractors, and/or poseurs better get the fuck out of the way, or they'll get Xed-out. [S. laughs]

Steve: How about your lyrics? Are they your take on reality, or is it more a fantasy thing? What are we to make of your lyrics?

Jeff: That's my life. My life is fuel for my poetry -- or my lyrics, poetry.

Steve: So that's your life in there?

Jeff: Of course, or else I wouldn't be able to fill them with any blood, any life. I wouldn't. Even things that are... I don't think I've ever made anything. Oh. It's a weird balance between... It's not autobiographical? I make it so it can live in different parts of my life, so it's open, but it's not specific to a gender or identity. It's just specific to an experience of life. That's what it is.

Steve: I guess people can translate it as they please.

Jeff: They can. Yeah. They can...

Steve: Interpret it as they please, I should say.

Jeff: Yeah. As they need.

Steve: I've never seen this before. On your Japanese pressing, it has the English lyrics, and it doesn't have...

Jeff: Oh, yeah

Steve: It doesn't have the Japanese translation. It says by your wishes, you didn't want it in there.

Jeff: Yeah, because it wouldn't be accurate.

Steve: Oh. In other words, you don't want a literal rendering.

Jeff: Yeah. It was just a last minute... It just took five minutes to decide. I went "Eh, no, I hate 'em." Like I hate it when... I mean it took fucking... It took many translators to get Rilke down to a real, cool, honest, accurate, poetic translation from German to English. Stephen Mitchell apparently has the latest "Letters To a Young Poet" and "Duino Elegies" -- they're all Stephen Mitchell. Somehow, he happened upon, in his heart, he's been able to translate. But I would have to work with a special, Japanese friend, who knows me. I just wouldn't want to... It would just be unfair to the Japanese people, because the songs are important to me. I couldn't just knock off a Japanese rendering, and have it be accurate. I'd have to know Japanese. It might take two pages to fill just the one English thing, because Japanese language, I was told is... Well you know. You're in Japan.

Steve: [laughs] Yeah.

Jeff: But, no.. I get all those fucking... That Sufi, the Qawalli Sufi poetry that's brought into... English translation is so dry and disgusting. Eccch. I hate English translations of things like Mexican, Spanish, and Urdu from Pakistan, and French, which is so... just the identity itself... just the logic of the language is so filled with innuendo, and puns, and stuff like that. You just can't catch it. You have to experience that language. So I thought it wouldn't be wise. It wasn't a precious thing. I just thought it wouldn't do any good.

Steve: So you think that just the Japanese listener, left to his own devices will get more from the...

Jeff: Yeah.

Steve: The music as a result?

Jeff: Yeah. And find out about it over years, to find out what it means to them.

Steve: Oh, that's interesting. I thought that's the first time I had encountered that.

Jeff: I just thought I was just doing the right thing.

Steve: Compared to other people in your generation, your age group, whatever, do you think you were raised in a different sort of environment, or is your story rather typical?

Jeff: I'm typical of many people all over the world.

Steve: You said you see yourself as sort of a stranger, though, an outsider.

Jeff: Yeah, well, no. It's just been most of my life, it's been like that.

Steve: Is that because of your circumstance, or because of your...

Jeff: Yeah.

Steve: Personality?

Jeff: Both. Well, it's my personality reacting to my circumstance. You mean am I inherently a stranger? I'm inherently... odd. But being... But also moving around... I have a couple of different levels. When you move around alot, you sort of learn how to hang on to things as soon as you find them, if you like them, and sort of be really forthcoming with your emotions so you can make friends a bit more without the bullshit. But then equally, the pain of letting people go all of a sudden, because you have to leave all of a sudden. It builds a sort of an armor. It builds a sort of a sadness, and a reticence to get involved.

Steve: You're not really a loner though, right? When you say...

Jeff: Yes, I am.

Steve: Oh, you are?

Jeff: Mmm Mmm

Steve: Often artists feel they can communicate better with people from the stage, or though their music, as opposed to one-on-one relationships.

Jeff: No. I'm pretty much a loner. But I love people.

Steve: Do you connect with people better as an artist, though as opposed to just a...

Jeff: No. I connect to them more directly as an artist. I connect to them more permanently as a human. I'm more eloquent with the music. But I don't use music to talk to people. I don't use music to communicate to my lover. I use my heart. Each time, I'm just speaking my heart. It's all the same. It's all the same reservoir, but just different settings.

Steve: So, being an artist enriches your life.

Jeff: Yeah.

Steve: It brings you to more people, but it's just not something you rely on necessarily to communicate.

Jeff: It's something I rely on. Actually I rely on it most. I identify with it most to express myself, just to outer existence. It's an inexpressible thing that somehow is made real, and doesn't exist in normal language. Meaning, I can't have one without the other. Actually, that's what I should say. Because I have a passion for both. I have an overwhelming passion for both. Also, it's a weird energy. Sometimes as fast as I'm running towards it, I'm running away from it, with the equal power. I'm pretty fucked up. [Jeff laughs]

Steve: Why would you be running away from it?

Jeff: Sometimes I do. Just sometimes I... feel... like I can't win, but I have to maintain my fortitude.

Steve: Meaning...

Jeff: Meaning with people, or meaning with music.

Steve: You mean... You say you can't win. Do you feel limitations as an artist?

Jeff: I feel the fear of the drop into the bottomless pit of the potential of how things could be realized. I feel like I could disappear. That's the fear.

Steve: Disappear, meaning like you lose your creative juice?

Jeff: No. Completely lose my identity... in the name of music. Because I could be consumed by it. All of it. I could turn into a idiot savant that only plays. I could become a freak. I'm afraid of it.

Steve: A human jukebox?

Jeff: Just a freak who can't express himself any other way. I don't that. I want to be able to talk about books, and movies, and feelings, and do that.

Steve: In that sense, I guess you sort of have to distance yourself from the music from time to time.

Jeff: Sometimes. But it's always... It's not like that. I just fall into... It's like when lovers, those certain couples, they're so passionate for each other, but they're complete poison for each other as well? Well the only time I've really spent away from music was just during this amazing depression when I didn't even pick anything up, and didn't even sing for years. It's a weird personal thing. [in a half whisper] Next question.

Steve: So do you think there's a possibility of you actually again taking another extended sabbatical from music just to...

Jeff: I have no plans to, but if I need it, I will. No, no, I mean music is with me all the time. I've had music, despite record companies. I've always had music. So it's not something a need a music business for. But it's good that it's there, because I get to tour, and make little discs. It's really great.

Steve: I would say that Grace is probably the best album this year, and one of the...

Jeff: Aww.

Steve: And one of the most stunning things about it though, Jeff, is that the best songs are your own... Are you prolific? Do you have alot of other material?

Jeff: I do. But I wanted to include other things. It's a token -- Grace. It's a talisman of my past. I wanted to just include it, and sort of lay it to rest, so I could go on. But the next album is me.

Steve: Is there alot of recorded stuff that was left off?

Jeff: There's just one song, and I didn't like it. I want to rework it.

Steve: Do you have material for the next album ready?

Jeff: Not ready, because I have so little time. It's up there. It's in here. I just need time and space to work it out. So I'm fighting for every spare moment. You didn't like the Shudder To Think album? You ever hear of that one?

Steve: No.

Jeff: Ever heard the Grifters? There are some great albums. They're just all underground.

Steve: OK. I think I got what I need to know. Oh. One last technical question here.

Jeff: Sure.

Steve: Whose version of "Lilac Wine" did you first hear?

Jeff: I've only heard Nina Simone's.

Steve: Nina Simone's.

Jeff: And that's the only one that matters. There's one by Ertha Kitt. There's one by Elkie Brooks, which I've never, ever heard. There's another one. But they've done it, but Nina does it best. That's the end all of it. That's the be all end all version. She's the king.

Steve: Just wanted to get that straightened out.

Jeff: Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad you asked, because everybody thinks it's their country's version.

Steve: [chuckles] I had heard it was Elkie Brooks' version.

Jeff: Eccch. No. All I know about her is that she used to be in a band called Vinegar Joe.

Steve: With Robert Palmer.

Jeff: With Robert Palmer? Now anybody who's in a fucking hippie band with Vinegar Joe can not hold a candle to Nina Simone. [S. laughs] I don't care who you are.

Steve: Good point.

Jeff: Mmm Mmm.

Steve: All right , Jeff. Well, it's been a pleasure. I wish you the best of luck.

Jeff: All right, thank you.

Steve: Thank you very much.

Jeff: Bye, Steve.

Steve: Bye.